There are moves afoot to obtain S. Korean and possibly other nations to partner with US shipyards. There are also H1B VISA opportunities to expand, greater than present, and lower the skill sections to such activity as shipbuilding. Also, as CNO Greenert wrote in Proceedings some years ago, we just need functional platforms for warfare areas (never more germane than today). I took that to mean that we need basic conventional hulls built in a private shipyard (and in greater numbers) and fitted out modularly in a navy shipyard. I'm not talking about the LCS or the ESB...something cookie-cutter produced for area missions in greater numbers and optimized for flexible uses. Same for aircraft in many respects. Warfare has changed. That thing that looks like a Liberty-class freighter is a Capital Q-ship and a potent weapon system. Say 'so long' to high maintenance, high manning DDGs and CVNs, perhaps? Submarines...that's another matter.
Why aren't we building non-military ships? I was a merchant sailor and I've worked in shipyards. They got paid a living wage back then. If they were now, they would have them. What does it cost to rent an apartment near a shipyard? How many millions of American go on Carnival Cruises or Norwegian? When was the last time an American shipyard built one of them? probably 35=40 years ago.
Ingalls built 2 in the late 90s or early 2000s and they were finished in Europe. Miniscule in comparison to the big ones now at 850 feet. Chesapeake is building out a large American fleet of river cruise ships that would be about corvette to light frigate sized.
That is about what I expected to hear, though the two Ingall's built is a bit of a surprise. Honestly, we can do better than that. Right now, I believe HDW in Germany (I'm guessing) is building some conventional submarines for Israel. The whole contracting deal is rife with scandal and funny payments. Don't know the deets. What I somehow imagine no one is mentioning is that the whole thing is being done on the American dime, because that's what happened back in the early 90s. Nobody talked about it because it was free money for Ingalls, which handled the contract and no one in the american shipyards was gonna squall about the work that didn't go to American because they're already owned.
In my experience no one in government or industry is interested in paying workers to get trained. I am a retired shipyard worker who found that only the old dogs were retained when layoffs happened. It happened to me too many times. Apprenticeship programs were defunded so that only those who could afford it, could get training. In Seattle, which had a booming shipyard industry, is moribund because the Navy decided to move their shipbuilding to other parts of the country, especially the south, where wages have always been low. Typical, stupid, short term solutions.
Not surprisingly, the private sector takes a different view. As a person who works in the construction industry (not building houses or gas stations, but big, $100 million - $1 Billion projects) we willingly pay for skills training. In fact, we do things like purchase whole Junior Colleges and turn them into high quality, multi skill, training facilities. We are then able to feed our skilled labor requirements much more easily, with 'known' quantities. Bryan made the excellent point about moving away from the notion of 'College' as a means to a lifelong career. That's been a lie as all those kids with big unplayable tuition bills can attest. What many of them need is a good job with lifelong skills that actually produce things benefitting the country.... Electricians, Pipefitters, or, in this case, skilled Shipyard workers.
“My tiny history-major brain tells me that if shipyard workers were paid better, there would be more of them.”
Exactly. Same thing with the sailors. A government-employed sailor paid a pittance on a GS scale is being asked to make a sacrifice in order to support his country when he (or she) could be making more doing the same work for a private company. If civilian sailors were paid competitively, there would be more of them.
I'm sure somebody would construe it that way. Mainly I'm being sarcastic. I read the article, this article is based on. It's a good article, but it leaves a lot out. The shipbuilding industry is completely beholden to the Pentagon. They have to be very careful how loud they bark. I used to cover shipbuilding for industry newsletters in the early 90s. I know a lot has to have changed, but I can tell you, they are sitting on some major issues, nobody wants to talk about.
Yes, there is a lot more to it than just paying people more. I recognize that the shipyards have other issues. In a previous career, I worked for one of the warfare centers, and it was a good place to work, but I became aware of some of the Navy’s issues then.
However paying higher salaries is an important factor in attracting talented people to work at any job - government or private - especially when inflation is making every dollar count less. It’s hard to raise a family on a low GS number.
Provide greater long term certainty and continuity to private industry in order to get more ships built. It may not fully substitute for more money, but it's a much easier sell.
And bring back shop class in our public schools. We need people who know how to build stuff, yet we have a whole generation that lacks skills that were once considered common knowledge.
We really need some ships we can build inland where here is still some untapped existing labor. Closes notion is this sub work in Cleveland thing although I find that specific proposal to be very impractical. They should be fighting to get the LSM. I think part of their plan is to avoid actually having to compete.
One other idea. We need to really use the Anti Socialist agenda for something useful. Okay, no subsidies. Let's make all roads toll roads. Whatever pushed more traffic onto ship and rail in congested areas especially.
There's a huge data gulf between K-12 schools and DOD; until that's bridged, preparing young people for maritime careers is going to be tough until data is flowing across that divide. A bunch of state superintendents sent a letter to DOD asking to share data so they can at least assess how they're doing preparing students for military careers, and DOD just ignored them because fixing these sorts of problems is nobody's actual job.
The peabrain was pondering that kids now days want to work indoors and maybe ship building like gas pipe line building is an outdoor job. Wisconsin comes to mind. The. other thing that comes to mind is that every two and four years congress can change management. When congress is in session your life, your wife and your property is at risk.
Late edit: I wonder if there is a prejudice against women in the workforce. On my last big project rebuilding a wind tunnel had women welders in the workforce. Chicago Bridge and Iron did the metal forming and welding. All welders were hired locally and had to pass our tests for compitancy.
I think he newer the industry the better genders integrate. My Dad was old school mining and assembly line equipment and women were secretaries and that's it. I was telecom and never though twice about the fact it was half and half.
I would suggest you contact Mike Rowe. He is arguably the biggest advocate and biggest voice out there for more vocational training and promotion of the trades. Another proponent and ally are our friends over at gCaptain. That’s the private side. On the public side, we all need to write and cajole our congress critters in the House and Senate. From my perch, most people in this seafaring nation don’t realize that we are a seafaring nation.
Just look at old beach pictures from LA, or even the running on the beach scene in Rocky III for instance. Way more recreational craft right off the beach back then. Now I often wonder why people even have their boats.
Important topic. It seems like there is room for some type of "Able Bodied Seaman to Master" program with some number of spots reserved/paid for in state/federal maritime academies to get HS graduates a path to advance.
For what it's worth, I completely agree with your analysis and suggestions, Skipper. There's a historical legacy of government and business actions and interactions that have contributed to the sad state of the current U.S. commercial shipbuilding and maritime shipping industries.
I remind y'all that I'm but a rapidly aging Chief and both a Bubblehead and a Spook, at that. Still, it seems to me that our Navy shares considerable fault for the ways it has apparently mismanaged new ship projects - the LCS, ZUMWALT, and CONSTELLATION classes, for instance. The Associated Press recently published a story about the CONSTELLATION-class frigate: it's amazing that the Navy has not apparently issued a final design requirements document for this class, despite the fact that the first four units are under construction under its contract with the shipyard. The points you raise and uncertainties resulting from confusion over design requirements and specifications have significantly pushed back delivery dates.
The technical writer/editor in me is as appalled by this as is the Chief that lives in my core.
From my Army perspective, that seems solid in both analysis and prescriptions.
There are moves afoot to obtain S. Korean and possibly other nations to partner with US shipyards. There are also H1B VISA opportunities to expand, greater than present, and lower the skill sections to such activity as shipbuilding. Also, as CNO Greenert wrote in Proceedings some years ago, we just need functional platforms for warfare areas (never more germane than today). I took that to mean that we need basic conventional hulls built in a private shipyard (and in greater numbers) and fitted out modularly in a navy shipyard. I'm not talking about the LCS or the ESB...something cookie-cutter produced for area missions in greater numbers and optimized for flexible uses. Same for aircraft in many respects. Warfare has changed. That thing that looks like a Liberty-class freighter is a Capital Q-ship and a potent weapon system. Say 'so long' to high maintenance, high manning DDGs and CVNs, perhaps? Submarines...that's another matter.
Why aren't we building non-military ships? I was a merchant sailor and I've worked in shipyards. They got paid a living wage back then. If they were now, they would have them. What does it cost to rent an apartment near a shipyard? How many millions of American go on Carnival Cruises or Norwegian? When was the last time an American shipyard built one of them? probably 35=40 years ago.
Ingalls built 2 in the late 90s or early 2000s and they were finished in Europe. Miniscule in comparison to the big ones now at 850 feet. Chesapeake is building out a large American fleet of river cruise ships that would be about corvette to light frigate sized.
That is about what I expected to hear, though the two Ingall's built is a bit of a surprise. Honestly, we can do better than that. Right now, I believe HDW in Germany (I'm guessing) is building some conventional submarines for Israel. The whole contracting deal is rife with scandal and funny payments. Don't know the deets. What I somehow imagine no one is mentioning is that the whole thing is being done on the American dime, because that's what happened back in the early 90s. Nobody talked about it because it was free money for Ingalls, which handled the contract and no one in the american shipyards was gonna squall about the work that didn't go to American because they're already owned.
In my experience no one in government or industry is interested in paying workers to get trained. I am a retired shipyard worker who found that only the old dogs were retained when layoffs happened. It happened to me too many times. Apprenticeship programs were defunded so that only those who could afford it, could get training. In Seattle, which had a booming shipyard industry, is moribund because the Navy decided to move their shipbuilding to other parts of the country, especially the south, where wages have always been low. Typical, stupid, short term solutions.
Not surprisingly, the private sector takes a different view. As a person who works in the construction industry (not building houses or gas stations, but big, $100 million - $1 Billion projects) we willingly pay for skills training. In fact, we do things like purchase whole Junior Colleges and turn them into high quality, multi skill, training facilities. We are then able to feed our skilled labor requirements much more easily, with 'known' quantities. Bryan made the excellent point about moving away from the notion of 'College' as a means to a lifelong career. That's been a lie as all those kids with big unplayable tuition bills can attest. What many of them need is a good job with lifelong skills that actually produce things benefitting the country.... Electricians, Pipefitters, or, in this case, skilled Shipyard workers.
That and, that's where the oil is under the water so they had a reason to build ships anyway.
“My tiny history-major brain tells me that if shipyard workers were paid better, there would be more of them.”
Exactly. Same thing with the sailors. A government-employed sailor paid a pittance on a GS scale is being asked to make a sacrifice in order to support his country when he (or she) could be making more doing the same work for a private company. If civilian sailors were paid competitively, there would be more of them.
But that would be Socialism!
The government paying higher salaries for government jobs is socialism?
I'm sure somebody would construe it that way. Mainly I'm being sarcastic. I read the article, this article is based on. It's a good article, but it leaves a lot out. The shipbuilding industry is completely beholden to the Pentagon. They have to be very careful how loud they bark. I used to cover shipbuilding for industry newsletters in the early 90s. I know a lot has to have changed, but I can tell you, they are sitting on some major issues, nobody wants to talk about.
Yes, there is a lot more to it than just paying people more. I recognize that the shipyards have other issues. In a previous career, I worked for one of the warfare centers, and it was a good place to work, but I became aware of some of the Navy’s issues then.
However paying higher salaries is an important factor in attracting talented people to work at any job - government or private - especially when inflation is making every dollar count less. It’s hard to raise a family on a low GS number.
Or just leaving and getting a government job.
Provide greater long term certainty and continuity to private industry in order to get more ships built. It may not fully substitute for more money, but it's a much easier sell.
And bring back shop class in our public schools. We need people who know how to build stuff, yet we have a whole generation that lacks skills that were once considered common knowledge.
NEVER VOTE FOR A DEMOCRAT
You mean the party that pushes the expansion of unions and trade craft?
The party of Roosevelt which built the WWII navy?
We really need some ships we can build inland where here is still some untapped existing labor. Closes notion is this sub work in Cleveland thing although I find that specific proposal to be very impractical. They should be fighting to get the LSM. I think part of their plan is to avoid actually having to compete.
One other idea. We need to really use the Anti Socialist agenda for something useful. Okay, no subsidies. Let's make all roads toll roads. Whatever pushed more traffic onto ship and rail in congested areas especially.
There's a huge data gulf between K-12 schools and DOD; until that's bridged, preparing young people for maritime careers is going to be tough until data is flowing across that divide. A bunch of state superintendents sent a letter to DOD asking to share data so they can at least assess how they're doing preparing students for military careers, and DOD just ignored them because fixing these sorts of problems is nobody's actual job.
https://www.education.nh.gov/sites/g/files/ehbemt326/files/inline-documents/sonh/sharingmilitaryenlistmentdatawithstatesletter.pdf
Here is California's contibution. https://www.csum.edu/index.html
Here are the majors and minors: https://www.csum.edu/academics/majors.html
Of course they are taking courses in socialism, communism and WOKE and using the Golden Bear ship to smuggle illegals.
Not great.
Great post, spot on.
The peabrain was pondering that kids now days want to work indoors and maybe ship building like gas pipe line building is an outdoor job. Wisconsin comes to mind. The. other thing that comes to mind is that every two and four years congress can change management. When congress is in session your life, your wife and your property is at risk.
Late edit: I wonder if there is a prejudice against women in the workforce. On my last big project rebuilding a wind tunnel had women welders in the workforce. Chicago Bridge and Iron did the metal forming and welding. All welders were hired locally and had to pass our tests for compitancy.
I think he newer the industry the better genders integrate. My Dad was old school mining and assembly line equipment and women were secretaries and that's it. I was telecom and never though twice about the fact it was half and half.
Bryan,
I would suggest you contact Mike Rowe. He is arguably the biggest advocate and biggest voice out there for more vocational training and promotion of the trades. Another proponent and ally are our friends over at gCaptain. That’s the private side. On the public side, we all need to write and cajole our congress critters in the House and Senate. From my perch, most people in this seafaring nation don’t realize that we are a seafaring nation.
Just look at old beach pictures from LA, or even the running on the beach scene in Rocky III for instance. Way more recreational craft right off the beach back then. Now I often wonder why people even have their boats.
Important topic. It seems like there is room for some type of "Able Bodied Seaman to Master" program with some number of spots reserved/paid for in state/federal maritime academies to get HS graduates a path to advance.
For what it's worth, I completely agree with your analysis and suggestions, Skipper. There's a historical legacy of government and business actions and interactions that have contributed to the sad state of the current U.S. commercial shipbuilding and maritime shipping industries.
I remind y'all that I'm but a rapidly aging Chief and both a Bubblehead and a Spook, at that. Still, it seems to me that our Navy shares considerable fault for the ways it has apparently mismanaged new ship projects - the LCS, ZUMWALT, and CONSTELLATION classes, for instance. The Associated Press recently published a story about the CONSTELLATION-class frigate: it's amazing that the Navy has not apparently issued a final design requirements document for this class, despite the fact that the first four units are under construction under its contract with the shipyard. The points you raise and uncertainties resulting from confusion over design requirements and specifications have significantly pushed back delivery dates.
The technical writer/editor in me is as appalled by this as is the Chief that lives in my core.
'nuff said.
1. "Join da union, get paid enuff your kids can go to college and get a gud job".
2. Feminists may talk about Rosie the Riveter, but they don't want to be her.
Hard noisy work poorly compensated